The Cuyahoga Rough Writers Blog

Ameritrust Developer K&D Charged With Bribery

Federal prosecutors have charged Henry J. Picozzi, a superintendent and project manager for K&D Group Inc., with bribing two Cleveland building inspectors in connection with the Stonebridge development on the West Bank of the Flats.

The inspectors are not named. One did electrical inspections. The other examined structural work.

The investigation started separately from the FBI's work on pontential corruption in Cuyahoga County government.  But the investigation into building inspectors became a tentacle of the county probe when one of the inspectors helped agents investigate Steve Pumper, the chief executive officer of D-A-S Construction. The company had done work at County Commissioner Jimmy Dimora's home in Independence.

The charge, which was filed in U.S. District Court Monday, states that the Stonebridge project was at various times behind schedule and over budget. Picozzi bribed the inspectors to expedite the approval process, to obtain "approval to reduce construction time and costs, and to expedite approval of occupancy permits for some floors at Stonebridge so that the project could begin to receive income."

The bribes took the form of cash payments of $3000, $2000, and $1,000, as well as entertainment and dinner at a strip club.

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Cuyahoga FBI Raids: Bedford Next Stop For The Feds

A subpoena issued Feb. 18 -- the same day federal agents raided Nature Stone's headquarters and warehouse -- ordered Judge Peter Junkin to turn over hundreds of pages of court records, e-mails and other documents detailing his relationship with Masetta since Jan. 1, 2005.

The subpoena, a copy of which The Plain Dealer obtained Wednesday, shows for the first time that the ongoing federal public corruption probe of Cuyahoga County government has delved into Bedford courts, a suburban stronghold of the county Democratic party.

The investigation became public last July, when 175 agents raided the homes and offices of county Commissioner Jimmy Dimora, Auditor Frank Russo, county employee J. Kevin Kelley and several contractors who did work at the homes of Dimora and Russo.

On Wednesday, Masetta said through a spokesman that he has been friends with Junkin for 20 years. Before becoming a judge, Junkin represented Masetta as a lawyer.

"There's never been anything inappropriate about our relationship and I have never asked for any special favors," Masetta said.

Junkin declined to comment.

Junkin's lawyer, Randy Klammer, said that the judge has reviewed the matter.

Of more than 30 Nature Stone cases, only one was assigned to Junkin, and it was dismissed by agreement of the parties.

"There's no truer public servant than Judge Junkin," Klammer said.

Bedford Clerk of Court Tom Day called a meeting Feb. 27 to warn all court employees that The Plain Dealer would be running an article about Junkin and the subpoena. Junkin did not attend.

"I told them they were adults," Day said Wednesday. " 'You work here, you're adults. It doesn't involve you, it doesn't involve the courts.' "

But others in the Bedford court are touched by the investigation or the possible fallout. Among them:

• Day himself. Political insiders consider Day a leading contender to replace Dimora as chief of the party if the probe leads to indictments.

• Masetta's daughter-in-law, Audra, is a part-time bailiff for the court.

• Gina Meuti Coppers, who is in charge of archiving and destroying court records, received a subpoena the same day that Junkin was served. The newspaper could not obtain a copy of that subpoena.

Day, who has seen the document, said Coppers' subpoena has nothing to do with court business and is not a court record.

Coppers -- the daughter of former longtime Bedford Heights Police Chief Dominic Meuti -- could not be reached Wednesday. Before working for the courts, she served as special assistant coordinator for senior citizens for Bedford Heights when Dimora was mayor, according to the resume she gave to the courts.

In recent days, Coppers spent her days making copies of court records for Junkin to give to a grand jury on March 18 -- the same day she has been called to testify.

Among the documents Junkin will turn over are 50 civil cases involving attempts by Nature Stone to collect from customers and four traffic and criminal cases involving members of Masetta's family. Junkin handled some of the cases, but magistrates or the other Bedford judge -- Brian Melling, Junkin's former law partner -- handled others.

Court records not sought by investigators show that Masetta's son, Michael, has been in front of Junkin at least six times for traffic and minor criminal cases. Each time, the younger Masetta appears to have received a break. Some of the cases were amended to lesser charges; others were dismissed. Fines were often waived or reduced.

In addition to court records, the subpoena demands Junkin turn over any correspondence he had with Masetta about work done at Hillcrest Memorial Park Cemetery Association, a nonprofit group that runs a 36-acre cemetery in Bedford. Junkin served on the cemetery board for 30 years. He resigned in December 2006, and Masetta became chairman of the cemetery, serving until August 2008.

Under Masetta's leadership, the cemetery's nest egg swelled from $17.7 million to $29.9 million. More than $10 million in new investment income, as well as savings, endowments and other funds boosted the fund, according to tax records.

Junkin's wife, Jill, has served as chief executive officer of the cemetery since 2006. She earns $125,000 a year, according to the group's most recent tax filings in 2007. And William Junkin -- Peter Junkin's son and Jill's stepson -- also serves on the cemetery board, earning about $3,000 a year.

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Dimora's Influence In North Royalton? County Corruption Probe Spreads

         The city has been subpoenaed by a U.S. District Court grand jury to relinquish several documents that involve Mayor Robert A. Stefanik and Joseph O'Malley, second assistant prosecutor.
The subpoena relates to the ongoing FBI investigation into alleged Cuyahoga County corruption.  The subpoena asked for several items, including any and all documents pertaining to O'Malley's personnel file, as well as his application, references, reference letters and documents or electronic mailing about his hiring.                                                                     
         Stefanik's mayoral campaign finance records, prior to the election to present, also were requested.
        The subpoena also asked for communication between any North Royalton city employee and Commissioner Jimmy Dimora, Jason Lucarelli, Samuel Lucarelli, Vincent Russo, doing business as Vincore, 1-888-Ohio Comp, Minutemen Staffing and Doan Pyramid. 
         Stefanik appointed O'Malley, with approval from City Council, in February 2008. It was rumored shortly after Stefanik became mayor that O'Malley was in line for the job to pay back a favor -- Dimora had allegedly loaned money to Stefanik's campaign, then reportedly told Stefanik to give O'Malley the job. Stefanik denied that on Monday. 
        "There is no truth to that," he said. "They are doing this (requesting subpoenas) in a lot of cities. This is just not North Royalton and not just picking on me." The collected documents must be delivered by 9 a.m. Wednesday to the Carl B. Stokes U.S. Courthouse in downtown Cleveland.
        The overall investigation extended from Dimora and Cuyahoga County Auditor Frank Russo to such entities as 1-888-Ohio Comp, Minutemen Staffing, Vincent Russo and Doan Pyramid. The investigation crossed into 1-888-Ohio Comp, a workers' compensation firm that has ties to county employees as well as Russo's son, Vincent.
        The county has used the firm for its compensation claims since 2000. North Royalton, the school district and many other communities also recently began using that firm.
        Former Mayor Cathy J. Luks reportedly said she felt pressured to use the group as well. She then found herself challenged for her seat by a county employee, although she was re-elected.
James Lucarelli is president of 1-888-Ohio Comp and was a Dimora gift giver. His records were requested earlier.
        Samuel Lucarelli helps run Minute Men Human Resources Systems, which offers employer services, including temporary labor and payroll processing. The business includes 1-888-Ohio Comp. William Edwards with the U. S. Attorney Office said the agency could not comment on the grand jury matter.

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County Recorder Greene Continues O'Malley's Patronage Practice

When sitting judge Lillian Greene was handed the appointment of Cuyahoga County Recorder in June, she promiesed to "restore credibility" to a office that was marred by rampant patronage and the unethical leadership of Patrick O'Malley. (Cleveland.com)  Yet, news surfaced today that the State Of Ohio, not the Democrat Recorder Greene, will have to step in to cut out the irresponible patronage and governement waste.

(Plain Dealer) The state auditor is expected to report today that the Cuyahoga County Recorders Office has too many workers and needs to cut positions.

County Administrator James McCafferty, who reviewed a draft of the report, on Monday said Auditor Mary Taylor recommends eliminating 17 positions from an office that employs about 100 people.

Taylor declined to comment Monday, but has scheduled a news conference today in Cleveland.

County commissioners asked Taylor for the administrative audit in May, a week after then-Recorder Patrick O'Malley pleaded guilty to a federal obscenity charge and resigned.

In April, The Plain Dealer reported that O'Malley had given three dozen patronage jobs in 2007, hiring former mayors, the son and daughter of a judge and the wife of a councilman.

As of April, the newspaper also reported, his office employed 103 workers -- nearly twice as many employees as in the recorder's office in Franklin County, which has slightly fewer people than Cuyahoga County.

County recorders are responsible for the filing of real estate transfers and other county documents.

O'Malley could not be reached Monday for comment.

McCafferty and other county officials -- including current Recorder Lillian Greene -- were told of Taylor's findings earlier this month.

Greene declined to discuss the findings, but McCafferty said she already has cut some of workers she inherited. More workers could leave through the county's early retirement incentive package offered to employees next year.

"Her intent is not to put anybody out of work," McCafferty said.

Greene's chief deputy, John Kandah, said the recorder is committed to restoring the office's credibility.

Greene "doesn't believe in gray areas and playing politics," Kandah said.

Personnel costs have been the office's top expense since at least 2003. Salaries were more than $3.8 million this year. The 2009 county budget, which was adopted earlier this month, calls for reducing payroll to $3.1 million. But Cuyahoga's elected officials, such as the recorder, have the authority to outspend their budgets and occasionally do so.

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Cuyahoga Commissioner's Blunder The Budget, Again

(Plain Dealer) Cuyahoga County commissioners were surprised Thursday by a six-figure legal bill for medical mart negotiations that they thought was already covered.

The $100,000 charge is part of an estimated $175,000 in legal fees that commissioners will pay in trying to land the combined medical mart/convention center.

Commissioners thought that last year they had set aside $161,000 in leftover money from a defunct convention center organization to pay Cleveland attorney Fred Nance to deliver the medical mart project downtown. But the money has been spent, and none of it went to Nance...

Commissioners wondered aloud why the money had not been paid. Then, they wondered where the money went.

"Our understanding was this was being paid by Positively Cleveland," said Commissioner Peter Lawson Jones.

County Administrator James McCafferty answered that Positively Cleveland, the region's tourism bureau, thought it could use the money on a wide range of medical mart expenses.

Contacted after the meeting, agency President Dennis Roche said it had been made clear to the county that the $161,000 would be spent determining the best place to locate the medical mart.

A handful of companies, including Squire Sanders, were hired to complete what would be a $350,000 study to place the complex.

The study recommended building at Tower City, but Merchandise Mart disregarded the report. The company is doing its own site and cost study and in turn is delaying completing a development agreement with commissioners to launch the project that many hope will be an economic boon to the area.

Commissioners want a site picked and an agreement in hand by Jan. 15.

Jones said commissioners will pay Squire Sanders using sales tax money being collected to pay for the medical mart, then recoup the legal costs by siphoning some of the monthly bed-tax disbursements that make up part of Positively Cleveland's funding.

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FBI Probe: More Details On Council Pres. Sweeney

(Plain Dealer) Sweeney was a rising council star in 2002 when he made plans for a two-story addition to his family's Cape Cod-style home on West 133rd Street. He served as the council's majority leader, one step below then-Council President Frank Jackson, who is now the mayor.

A friend recommended that Sweeney hire Solomon & Associates to manage the addition, Sweeney said. The company, according to marketing materials from around 2001, specialized in retail and other large-scale commercial projects, such as renovations to a downtown hotel.

Solomon obtained a building permit for Sweeney's house in August 2002.[mst: 2001 or 2002? It's 2002, Henry confirmed: ]that year. Doan Pyramid pulled a permit to handle the electrical work the following month.

In December 2002, Solomon applied to become a lead contractor for the city's sound-insulation program for homes near Hopkins, records show.

Three months later, a panel of city administrators accepted Solomon's $831,000 bid for the job. In August 2003, Solomon received a similar contract, this one for an additional $500,000.

The company previously had been a subcontractor for the city's sound-insulation work at a West Side Catholic school, a job worth $472,000.

"We were pleased with the work they did for us," said Keith Tolliver of Gene's Refrigeration, the Medina company that served as lead contractor on that project.

The soundproofing program, which uses federal dollars, had been one that Sweeney had championed as a West Side neighbor to those frustrated with the noise of airplanes flying overhead.

Council members have no vote in awarding such contracts. But, when asked if he had put in a good word for Solomon & Associates, Sweeney replied: "I don't recall."

Other documents show that Roger Solomon of Solomon & Associates and Doan Pyramid President Michael Forlani each presented Sweeney with gifts worth more than $75 in 2002.

The forms, which elected officials must file with the Ohio Ethics Commission, do not specify the nature of the gifts. Sweeney said neither gift relates to his home addition, but he declined to disclose what he received from either businessman.

Solomon, who has since closed his company's downtown office, did not return messages left for him this week at his Valley View home. A lawyer for Forlani declined to comment.

Who hired whom

Sweeney said it was Solomon's choice to hire Doan to do the electrical work at the house.

John McCaffrey, an attorney representing Doan, confirmed that Solomon hired his client as a subcontractor, perhaps "on a suggestion from Mr. Sweeney. That was likely the case here."

Doan, McCaffrey added, billed Solomon $1,700 for its electrical work. He said Doan officials are confident that Solomon paid. He also believes that Solomon, as the project manager, ultimately charged Sweeney for those costs.

Sweeney is not the only elected officeholder to have employed Doan. The company once did electric, furnace and air-conditioning work at the home of Russo, the county auditor.

But Doan specializes in large-scale commercial and government projects, including at Hopkins airport. In 2001, the year before Doan was hired to help at Sweeney's, the company worked on an airport expansion project.

Doan returned to Hopkins in April of this year as a subcontractor on a $4.2 million taxiway relocation project led by Blaze Construction, another focus of the federal corruption probe.

Both of the subpoenas that seek information about Sweeney also seek information related to a project or prospective project at Hopkins sometime around April. One of those subpoenas was served on Blaze Building Corp., which shares a Berea address with Blaze Construction.

Like the soundproofing contract awarded to Solomon, city administrators, not council members, voted on the taxiway contract. Sweeney said he had no role in selecting the winners.

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Council President Sweeney And Others Named In County Corruption Probe

Cleveland Council President Martin J. Sweeney Named In Investgation

A tentacle of the federal corruption probe gripping Cuyahoga County reaches into the highest levels of Cleveland City Hall, the office of the council president.

The Plain Dealer last week obtained documents showing that agents are investigating the relationship between Council President Martin J. Sweeney -- one of the two most powerful men in Cleveland government -- and two construction companies that share a building in Berea.

Investigators also are asking questions about whether some public officials have financial ties to contractors, the same contractors they awarded hundreds of millions of tax dollars to for work at Cleveland Hopkins International Airport and the county's 800 miles of roads. The airport is in Sweeney's council ward and is operated by the city. He once was responsible for oversight of the airport as chairman of council's Aviation Committee.

The documents show for the first time that the corruption probe does not stop at the doors of Cuyahoga County government.

The investigation was revealed to the public July 28, when 175 federal investigators fanned out across the county to raid the offices and homes of government officials and contractors, seizing computers, hundreds of cartons of documents and other materials. Since then, agents have searched other offices -- of contractors and two judges -- serving a total of about 200 subpoenas.

But even the latest subpoenas obtained by the newspaper -- served on July 28 -- show that the focus of the probe remains on the two men who run Cuyahoga County and the county Democratic Party -- Commissioner Jimmy Dimora and Auditor Frank Russo.

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Plain Dealer List More Names Being Investiaged

Last week, The Plain Dealer obtained several more court documents that included new names and companies that have caught the attention of federal agents. Among them:

Marty Sulzmann is the yard-equipment clerk at the Cuyahoga County engineer's office. He began working for the county in 2001. A message left at his office was not returned.

Mike Dever, former head of construction for the county engineer's office, is the deputy to the sanitary engineer. He is not sure why he is named in a subpoena, though he said he once accepted a campaign contribution from Blaze Construction owner Ferris Kleem as a Lakewood councilman.

Ohio Lottery. Subpoenas served on Russo's house sought records of the Ohio Lottery. Michael Dolan, lottery director, said, "I've spoken to no one involved in the investigation."

Rudy Stralka is treasurer of the Cuyahoga County Democratic Party and a member of the Ohio Lottery Commission. He was subpoenaed to produce documents from Dimora's and Russo's political committees. Investigators also subpoenaed financial records, job recommendations, information about hirings and other records.

Marous Brothers Construction is a developer. The Willoughby construction company and its president, Chip Marous, were listed in a federal subpoena and search warrant for Russo. But County Administrator James McCafferty said the county has no major projects involving Marous Brothers Construction. Cleveland has paid the company $5.9 million since 2001.

Lopat Development Co. is at 151 Lou Groza Blvd., in Berea. That is the same address listed for Blaze Construction and Phoenix Cement, which have received millions of dollars in public contracts. State records do not indicate who owns Lopat.

Johnson Controls Inc. is a publicly traded, Milwaukee-based company that specializes in energy efficiency in buildings.

The Parma School District has awarded the company $19.8 million in contracts since 2000. J. Kevin Kelley, a school board member and employee in the county engineer's office, is under federal investigation for ties to companies that do business with the district.

Johnson Controls, in many of its deals with Parma schools, selected as a subcontractor another company under federal investigation -- Doan Pyramid Electric.

The company also has done business with Cuyahoga County, which has paid the company at least $3.3 million since 2004.

Joe Gouker is the project manager for the Parma School District. He said he is not sure why he is named in the Blaze subpoena. He said Blaze has bid, unsuccessfully, on one Parma schools project.

Oracle Corp. is a software company that is tied to a computerized Cuyahoga County mapping system developed by Kelley. Based on Kelley's recommendation, the county hired Michael Baker Jr. Inc. to help build the system with Oracle software.

Federal investigators are checking into that $4 million project.

The county has spent more than $422,000 on Oracle's products since 2006. Cleveland has had contracts with Oracle since 2001 totaling more than $7.5 million. Parma schools have done $14,000 worth of business with the company since 2002.

Dick Corp., now known as dck Worldwide, is based in Pittsburgh and is one of the country's largest construction and construction-management firms. Federal agents raiding Russo's home sought documents about the company. Company lawyer Mike Ambroso said he had no knowledge of the subpoena. A database of county payments to vendors shows the company has received at least $438,775 since 2005.

Woolpert Inc. is a national design and engineering firm based in Dayton. The company provides services including engineering, information management services, construction administration and airport design services. Cuyahoga County has paid about $1.2 million to the company this year.

Green-Source Products LLC is affiliated with D-A-S Construction of Garfield Heights. Green-Source makes insulated wall panels and has a manufacturing plant in Collinwood. The company has been served a subpoena for documents and is cooperating, lawyers said. The business is part owned by John Pumper, father of Steve Pumper. Steve Pumper is CEO of D-A-S and authorities are investigating whether he did work for Dimora in exchange for public contracts.

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Cuyahoga County GOP Thanks Local Volunteers

 

 

 

 

Republican Party of Cuyahoga County

 

 

 

For Immediate Release                

Contact:

Rob Frost 216-534-6346

 

Chairman Thanks Volunteers for Remarkable Grass Roots Effort

Renews call for better, more efficient government in Cuyahoga County

Cleveland - Republican Party of Cuyahoga County Chairman Rob Frost congratulated Barack Obama and the Democrats on their victories yesterday, but noted that local Republican grassroots efforts resulted in notable performance improvements and achieved some significant wins as well.  "While I am disappointed that Senator McCain will not be our next President, I know that our hard work locally paid off.  For that, I thank our local candidates and the hundreds of volunteers with whom I have had the honor to work over these many months."  

Frost continued, "Mayor Debbie Sutherland received over sixty-five thousand more votes for County Commissioner than any Republican in over a decade, and Jim Trakas gave Dennis Kucinich his closest race since he was first elected to Congress, closing the gap by thirty thousand votes.  The residents of Cuyahoga County are beginning to see that it's time for new leadership right here at home."

Republicans prevailed locally in several key races including State Rep. Tom Patton winning the open 24th District Ohio Senate seat, and State Rep. Josh Mandel winning re-election in the heavily Democratic 17th Ohio House District.  In a hotly contested race, Nan Baker won the 16th District Ohio House seat, ousting incumbent Democrat Jennifer Brady, for the only Republican pick-up in the state of Ohio. "I am pleased that we had these successes locally in the state legislative races, although I know we still have work to do," Frost said.  Other key victories include the re-election of Ohio Supreme Court Justices Maureen O'Connor and Evelyn Stratton, and Judge Richard McMonagle winning re-election to the Court of Common Pleas.  

"Last night's results show that more and more people in Cuyahoga County sense the need for better government.  Our hard working volunteers contacted tens of thousands of voters - more than any previous effort - spreading the word of the need for new leadership.  Changing an entrenched and corrupt system of local government takes time, and this election was a major step in the right direction.  I look forward to getting back to work on continuing our fight for good government in Cuyahoga County," Frost concluded. 

Sutherland v. Peter Lawson Jones; Sutherland Draws Stark Differences

An already hotly contested race for Cuyahoga County commissioner got even more heated Wednesday as Debbie Sutherland, who is white, accused black incumbent Peter Lawson Jones of playing the race card.

The jab came during a debate at the City Club of Cleveland in response to an audience member who asked how the mayor of suburban Bay Village would lead such a diverse county.

"It doesn't matter if you are black, white, rich, poor, East Side, West Side -- we have got to work together to move this county forward," replied Sutherland, a Republican, who then added: "My opponent would like to [make this] about race and class, and it's not."

Jones, a Democrat, scolded Sutherland for the remark in his rebuttal.

"How dare you?" he said. "I have done nothing in this race to play on race and class."

After the debate, Sutherland accused Jones of planting someone at debates to ask her questions about diversity. Jones' response: "Give me a break."

The tone was much the same during their hourlong showdown.

Jones, who has held the job since 2002, focused largely on his efforts to create and retain jobs in the county. But Sutherland repeatedly scrutinized her opponent's character and questioned his leadership in the wake of a federal corruption probe of county government.

"Patronage, cronyism, lack of leadership, mismanagement -- and let's not forget the chauffeur and strip club manager," Sutherland said, rattling off a list of complaints.

The chauffeur dig involves the county car and driver Jones has used for county-related meetings. The strip club manager is Rosemary Vinci, a county employee and political ally of Auditor Frank Russo and Commissioner Jimmy Dimora, both focuses of the corruption probe.

Sutherland asked Jones several times during the debate to explain what he has done and would do to address patronage charges and concerns about the ongoing FBI investigation.

Jones never answered her. Instead, he emphasized his record of supporting county funding to create jobs and promote other economic development...

Each candidate borrowed a label from the rival party's presidential nominee.

Sutherland cast herself, much like Democratic Sen. Barack Obama, as the "change" candidate. Jones, alluding to Republican Sen. John McCain, called himself a maverick.

"I said 'no' to raising the sales tax to pay for the medical mart," Jones said, citing the first of two examples of his lone opposition votes on the county's three-member commission. "Then, when we talked about tearing down the Ameritrust Tower, I said 'no' to that."

Sutherland, this time doting on Republican vice presidential nominee Gov. Sarah Palin, won some hearty laughs after landing a quick rebuttal: "I may not know how to field-dress a moose," Sutherland said. "But I know a maverick when I see one -- and Peter's not it."

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Butler takes on Mason

Yes, Bill Mason bothered to show up at the City Club yesterday... and probably wished he hadn't.  Here's the report from WCPN:

The Cuyahoga County Prosecutor's office is up for grabs this November and Annette Butler would like to take the seat off Bill Mason's Hands. In an unprecedented move, Mason had previously refused to debate Butler, but yesterday the pair squared off in downtown Cleveland. ideastream®'s Gretchen Cuda reports.

Mason, who has held the prosecutorial post since November of 2000 (sic), refused to debate Butler on two separate occasions on the grounds that she wasn’t a serious candidate. But Butler finally got her chance when Mason agreed to debate at the City Club of Cleveland.  She spoke plainly about her concern that the current prosecutor’s office is not applying justice is not being applied with an even hand, that it is dysfunctional and needs reform.

BUTLER: We have an honorable prosecutor.  We have some honorable prosecutors.  But something is very wrong.  And maybe it’s the style.  Maybe it’s the commitment.  Maybe it’s the practicing fairness that I’ve done for 24 years that’s missing in the county prosecutors office.  Well I’d like to add it to the county prosecutors office.

And when it comes to style, perhaps the most striking differences between the two candidates was in the way they handled several emotional audience members who claimed Mason refused to see them or properly address their court cases Mason kept his cool and denied any personal knowledge of the case details, and scoffed at Butler’s suggestion to assemble a community advisory board.

MASON:  We already have a community advisory board currently. It’s called the Grand Jury.

But Butler said she believes the prosecutor’s office should pay much closer attention to the people it is supposed to serve.

BUTLER: It’s your law firm.  YOU should have everything to say about how it operates.

Gretchen Cuda, 90.3
Listen to the report at WCPN.org
Or listen to the entire debate on the City Club Podcast at CityClub.org